Top 3 Awesome Posts by # of thumbs up over past 24 hours

  • ? help:

    What is the Top 3 Awesome Posts? It's where the top thumbed up items from this forum appear! It looks like there haven't been any posts voted on. Just click on the thumbs beneath a post!

Moderators:

  • Radiation
  • And our supermoderators and administrators.

Dalton Standing sprite The Midpoint

A vaguely scientific inquiry

Anarchy in the SB Sir SimonBob

quote = edit, we hope you collapse

  • Aces
  • fangamerHCP
  • easy
  • DINO RAMPAGE!
  • dragon
  • hardtrivia2
  • dabr

Needless to say, this topic is concerned with the game as a whole, so it’s gonna get a bit spoilery.

Just now, I told EarthBoundRules that he was nearly halfway through the game as he navigated the Magic Cave in 600 AD. Specifically, I’m referring to the defeat of Magus as the exact middle. I base this designation on a variety of reasons: for one, the first time I ever completed the game during a heavy-play rental weekend, I stopped on Saturday about five hours in after beating Magus, and I was fighting Lavos in the Black Omen at around ten to eleven hourson on Sunday.

But there’s other factors pointing to this spot as a natural place to divide the game. The story progression heavily dictates it: from the epiphany at Arris Dome’s supercomputer onwards, the characters are fully occupied with discovering the rationale for Lavos. Once they (erroneously) determine that Magus is the cause, everything they do is a subset of that focus as they collect the necessary materials to mend the Masamune and challenge the wizard. But once Magus is defeated, it becomes clear that he’s a coincidental piece of the puzzle; the raising of the veil to show that Lavos is a force unto itself simultaneously dashes the player’s hopes (well shoot, that didn’t save the future, now what do we do?) while also giving the player new direction (the need to confront Lavos directly, rather than through any perceived agent.)

There’s also specific details within the confrontation itself that give the indication of midway: losing the fight with Magus results in an special death sequence, whereas winning displays a dreamlike cutscene with hints of both the past and the future. These add a greater quality to the moment, embossing it as a true peak of the storyline.

Nevertheless, I was curious: do the actual specs of the dungeons line up with the feel of the game? Was my potentially arbitrary midpoint actually a two-thirds point or worse? I decided to do a little examination to see if the amount of effort was proportionate to the divisions I’d set in my mind. I’ve broken down the areas and dungeons into relatively equal chunks and counted them to see if they match. Obviously, it’s not completely scientific, but I like to think it’s scienterrific.


Millenial Fair, Cathedral
Trial, Jailbreak
Lab 16, Arris Dome
Lab 32, Factory
End of Time, Medina, Heckran Cave
Zenan Bridge, Denadoro Mountains
Prehistory, Reptite Lair
Magic Cave, Magus’s Castle


Dactyl Nest, Tyrano Lair
Zeal, Sewer Access, Keeper’s Dome
Beast Lair, Mountain of Woe
Zeal again, Ocean Palace
Blackbird, North Cape
{Sidequests}
Black Omen

As you can see, my theory is workable, but it hinges on two things. First, I could see an argument being made for counting the Tyrano Lair as part of the first half. After all, Ayla doesn’t stay with the party permanently until then. But Frog spends an equally inordinate amount of time whinging in the Cursed Woods about how much he sucks, and beating Azala (or being beaten by her) just doesn’t have the same dramatic zing as Magus does. Sure, it’s an accomplishment, but it still leads directly to the unearthing of the gate to the Dark Ages. The momentum carries forward with a new clarity from Lavos’ arrival. And I have my own personal doubts about labeling the entirety of the “second half” as 12,000 BC alone, along with the endgame sequences.

Which leads to the second, more important point: the second half only lasts as long as the player happens to spend on the available tasks after they earn the upgraded Wings of Time. Ordinarily, this would include Death Peak, six separate quests of varying lengths, and then the Black Omen. But it’s entirely possible to skip a few here and there, although to face Lavos immediately after the Blackbird would probably spell certain doom for a new player. Still — we’re talking about four extra dungeons and eight bosses in the subquests alone. Perhaps it’s simply another testament to Chrono Trigger’s versatility in gameplay that these can enhance the player’s experience as they see fit, like the videogame plot equivalent of a slide rule.

What do you think? Is there a point in the game where you always feel like, “alright, I’m halfway there?” Or do you have some other division of thirds or quarters or sixty-sevenths? Hey, I know I’m convincing, but I want to hear from you!

sprite Foppy King

  • dabr
  • foppyking

My initial reaction is to agree that beating Magus the first time around is the logical half-way point, but this is mostly because that’s where Nintendo Power’s walkthrough of the game stopped. Made the latter part of the game a great big unknown.

My second reaction is to side with Tyrano Lair being the midpoint. But the more I think about it the less certain I am.

I think the fundamental decision here, story-wise, is to decide which makes the better divider: the heroes completing the set goal only to discover that maybe they were wrong about things, or the heroes witnessing the truth behind it all.

lush it, I’m going to claim that entire portion of 65 mil BC as the “Half-way zone”. I guess that makes flying the Dactyls the exact halfway point?

Anarchy in the SB Sir SimonBob

quote = edit, we hope you collapse

  • Aces
  • fangamerHCP
  • easy
  • DINO RAMPAGE!
  • dragon
  • hardtrivia2
  • dabr

I always find the Dactyls a bit of a letdown, actually. You don’t have to fight a boss to get them, they can’t take you anywhere you haven’t been besides the Tyrano Lair and the then-pointless Sun Keep, and they’re rather overshadowed by the glee of having Ayla back in the party.

But on the other hand, you’re riding a flying dinosaur.

Really, the Dactyl Lair is a bit like Truce Canyon in its execution: it gets you up to speed again on the prehistoric setting, but it’s over fast enough to qualify as only “introductory.” You’ve come down from the dizzying height of fighting a middle-age wizard in his prime, and now you’re gearing up again to go for the next pinnacle.

sprite Floogal

    I agree that Magus feels like a great halfway point, but I personally find the game fits a 4-act series better.

    1) Start of game to Learning about Lavos in 2300 AD.
    Before learning about Lavos, you’re really just a bunch kids involved in whacky hijinks (which happen to involve time travel). Crono and company are just wandering about, dealing with whatever obstacles are thrown at them (kidnapping, unfair trials, being on the lam).

    2) Learning about Lavos in 2300 AD to beating Magus.
    Suddenly, the group has a goal. They forget about their comparatively mundane issues (Marle’s run from home, Crono is a wanted criminal, Lucca aided his escape). They find a way back home, and "discover" the source of Lavos along the way. They then set about trying to end Lavos’ creation.

    3) Beating Magus to Crono’s death.
    Everything you thought you knew is tossed out the window. More is learned about Lavos (correct stuff this time), and, once again, the climatic fight at the end (this time with Lavos itself) fails to work. This time, there is a terrible price.

    4) Crono’s death to endgame.
    Crono’s death has to be a checkpoint of some sorts. The first time that happened, I thought that I’d messed up, and that I wasn’t supposed to lose that fight with Lavos in the Ocean Palace (the Golem Twins fight right before was hard, so maybe I was just unprepared...). I thought that waking up in the last village without Crono was part of a bad ending sequence, and decided to play it out. When Dalton appeared, I thought, "Okay, this is a very elaborate ending sequence." Later on, I started to realise that Crono was supposed to die. This surprised me.

    Anyways, this last act is really just tying up loose ends and going after Lavos. The whole Dalton segment feels like an unnecessary sidequest (its only mechanical purpose is to grant you the flying Epoch, and story-wise, Dalton perishing in the Ocean Palace would have been perfectly acceptable, although less awesome). Reviving Crono and doing all the sidequests is a means with which to prepare everyone (but Ayla) mentally for the final task of fighting the final guy.

    In short, it’s:
    1) Intro
    2) Plot begins.
    3) Plot twist.
    4) Wrap-up.

    Anarchy in the SB Sir SimonBob

    quote = edit, we hope you collapse

    • Aces
    • fangamerHCP
    • easy
    • DINO RAMPAGE!
    • dragon
    • hardtrivia2
    • dabr

    I thought, “Okay, this is a very elaborate ending sequence.”

    Heheheh.

    I don’t know, I think the brief and surprising reign of King Dalton is a welcome and necessary plot element; it really emphasizes the sudden lack of leadership in the party, while also giving some immediate closure to the aftermath of the disaster. There’s a real sense of “we got to smack down Dalton, so odds are we’ll be taking the fight to Zeal too,” which mitigates the loss of Crono somewhat. Of course, it’s better in the Woolsey translation, where he gets the brilliant line, “we have liftoff, Houston!”

    sprite EarthBoundRules

      Wow, very detailed. Thanks!

      sprite Alantar

      • Holiday Funfest 08 Winner

      It felt like a half-way point to me, although I was unaware that losing at that point results in a special death sequence. I think that only happened to me once, the very first time I played, and it’s been a really long time since then.

      “Have you met the man who says you cannot say goodbye to someone you have never met?”

      sprite -Popcorn_Fairy-

      • EarthBound Central

      I never really divided CT into halfs or parts, due to the fact you travel to every place multiple times, and the plot always seems to get mixed up.

      TriForceLink

      Eye Have You

      • hfdecay09
      • hfwinner09

      I say we give it a traditional Five-Act structure, in the Shakespearian style of things. Because it’s an epic, right?

      Act 1: Opening Exposition, Fair to Lab 16.

      Act 2: First Build, Arris to Denadoro

      Act 3: Culmination and Primary Crux, Prehistory To Tyrano Lair. Allows for the core of the story to surface, although the combat with Magus is at its center, it ends with Azala’s death.

      Act 4: Zeal to Ocean Palace, ending mainly in tragedy, but still preparing for the finale.

      Act 5: Blackbird to Black Omen. The Final Movement. Like any good comedy, starting slowly and again building to fruition.

      It’s weird though, when I first played to Magus, I assumed that was the first fourth of the game, all the hype I had heard made it seem much larger. The fact that it wasn’t made the experience much more impactful. Short and sweet, unless you do the side quests and NG+ and all that.